Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Okay, everybody, time for another podcast with Josh Seacrest on Frontline Conversation. And as you heard from the last podcast, Josh is an expert in this space. He's still the VP of Marketing at Paradox Workday, but he has a lot of experience outside of that. And this time, we're going to talk a little bit about what is Frontline and how do we segment Frontline.
So, Josh, what are your perspectives on that before we get into the details here?
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, it's been really neat. I can't wait for you to discuss how your team's been attacking segmentation because you've gone further and deeper. But maybe from my perspective, I've gotten to see a restaurant from an HR perspective at McDonald's and then retail from Abercrombie. And then when I've joined Paradox, I've been able to really dig into a lot of different industries, Frontline, and specifically how different roles are different. And so what I mean by that is I looked at hiring across industries. What I started to find were similarities across very specific roles. And so the roles that we started to see that were different were about 4 within frontline. And I know you've got a few more in within yours. The first role was sort of this high volume, unskilled role. We were seeing that in distribution centers, maybe an unskilled manufacturing role. Maybe it was like somewhere where you're shipping or online.
And what we were starting to see was that type of role was being hired in minutes. Okay, so apply, screened, get a contingent offer in minutes. And part of that was those types of roles just needed to really fill the line, right? And so it was an imperative to be able to fill within maybe a day or two days. And an interview didn't actually matter as much. We then saw within Frontline, and this is hourly restaurant roles, retail roles, having a different process start to form. And so that process was, hey, we need to move really fast to hire somebody, but we definitely want to interview them, right? We want to know who's going to come in. And because they're going to be interacting with our customer. And so what we've started to see is that population starting to get hired in about three to four days. They're automating everything in the hiring process up until that manager. Then you have this high skilled or licensed population, you're going to dive into this more. But truck drivers, nurses, and starting to approach that population differently because there's more scarcity, there's high demand. You need to make sure that the licenses are in place and Then topic we talked about in our last episode a lot is managers. How are you hiring and how are you supporting managers? And so that segmentation really helped us because really, for maybe one of the first times, technology wasn't just one size fits all. We were able to really highly configure it. When I was in the TA seat, I was able to highly configure the technology in different ways for different populations. And then as we're going into different industries, they can say, hey, we want to do X within this population, our corporate population, but for a retail manager, we'd like to do Y. And for a Frontline seasonal, we'd like to do Z. And so there's just a lot more configurability and there's an opportunity for organizations now to do this approach where maybe in the past we've always known these different roles exist. But it's neat to be able to see how segmentation is going to be supported by maybe some automation technology and allow for us to really, I think the word here is optimize our HR strategies, our budgets. And so, yeah, I'm really excited. I loved where your team's going. Can you give us a bit of a sneak peek? I know it's a work in progress.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I love complex problems like this. I think the typical belief is if it's an hourly job, it's frontline.
If it's not hourly, it's different. There's many simplistic approaches to this, but it's actually that doesn't really help you that much.
And one of the axes or dimensions is customer facing versus not customer facing. Another one is level of skill, no skill, some amount of trade skill, highly refined, certified credentialed skill level. In the second category, it might take a year or two or three or four years to develop that skill. In the third category, it might take 20 years. If you're an airline pilot or a doctor or some sort of a very, very advanced scientist.
Then there's the axis of safety versus non safety. Is it a high stakes or low stakes job? If I'm at McDonald's and I drop a hamburger, Eh, who cares? If I'm in a hospital and I drop somebody's blood sample, it may be the end of the procedure and they may have to start all over. And then of course, if I'm on an airplane, et cetera, it's worse. And then there's the dimension of volume of hire or turnover rate, which is some jobs, and we talked about this in the last podcast, are simply high turnover jobs, either because people leave for personal reasons or there's very few available talent to hire.
So they leave because they have other opportunities.
And that's sort of the situation in the airline pilot and in medical profession. And then there's another dimension, which is franchise versus corporate. You're sitting around an hr, you're managing a bunch of franchise stores. You have less impact on certain things than you do if you're in corporate. And then there's union versus non union. So it's an N by N segmentation problem in you laying that out.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: I mean, it's really interesting because this is the frontline conversation. And a big part of that is us making sure that we're breaking down specifically the industry, the role profile that we're going to go into and talk about. Because I think probably for you and me, as we've looked at maybe some research in the past, it doesn't go deep enough breaking those things down.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: I think a lot of people study this at a very high level. And also the BLS doesn't do anything segmentation like this. You can't get this out of the federal data unless you look at every single job title, which nobody has time to do. And by the way, then there's another dimension that is, does this person have access to technology or not? If they're in a truck, I mean, there's certain things you just can't do when they're in the truck. They're not going to look at their phone all day and they're not going to deal with a computer except maybe when they stop. So all of those are important. And let me just, Josh, give you a sense of why we're doing this. It's actually kind of agonizing. We've had a lot of debates about it already.
I know Nihal shared it with you. Where we are ideally, what we're going to come up with once we settled on this model, and it's getting close, is once we know what these dimensions are, then we could put that information into Galileo or another tool and you could say, as an HR person, I'm trying to hire or increase the skills or increase their attention or increase the engagement or change the behavior of this group of people.
Click on the dimensions that apply here and then our intelligence system will say, well, here's the most important factors you should consider because they're not going to be the same for all those different dimensions. They're going to be similar but not exactly the same. So that's my goal for this. So we're getting there, we're almost there.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: It's so, I think in tune with what we need as practitioners because me telling my experience at McDonald's I think the first pushback would be, hey, well, retail is different, manufacturing is different, health care is different. And I think what's been missing, and you laid out a lot of this, right, Is this segmentation model. Yes, there are a lot of different, what are you calling them, kind of axes that you pull apart dimensions. But by having those dimensions and we pull apart, it's actually going to make it a lot simpler and makes it so that our teams can just use that a lot.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: What are the things? So you've been doing this for a while and you've been selling to companies. Have I left anything else? What do you see as the dimensions that really made a difference when you were trying to put together a solution?
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I really like this. I mean I really like the part time versus full time. I really like the licensing because I think that's key because I think there are these differences on even experience versus license. And so maybe one example would be when you think of like a retail car tech, maybe someone who's replacing your windows or replacing your tires, you would say, oh, that's good, that's a great skill. That is certainly not a no skill role. But when you get to talk to a lot of those companies, they would say, well, we can actually take someone who doesn't have that skill today and we can train them up. They have to go through X and Y. It's going to be a beautiful training program. So then you think about, well then how do you hire those people and how important is retention? And for an organization like that, they would say it is incredibly important that we retain because we're spending money and resources for three to five months to train somebody up to be able to do this skill. And I think that's a really important population to talk about and juxtapose it to, let's call it a truck driver or even a nurse where it's. There's specific certifications or specific licenses. There's high demand for that type of person and there are only so many of them out of there. You need that license before really even starting. Are there programs that potentially allow you to get hired and then go. Sure, in some. But I think being able to really pull out those.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: Let me throw something else that just occurred to me while you were talking. The other thing that I think this segmentation can do is it can help you think about the work design and job design itself. Like if I think about the guy that's replacing your broken window or doing that kind of work, when they show up at your house or wherever they do this, if they're not being given really easy to use tools and templated procedures, they're very highly likely to break a couple of windows before they get it to work. Right. So it isn't just training, it's process design.
One of the industries we do a lot of work with is in insurance. When an insurance adjuster shows up at your house or your car, you would like them to be trained, but maybe better than that. Give them a tool so they can take a picture of your car and the system tells them what to look at.
Right. So a lot of this isn't just training, especially since we have so much AI available. How do we design the work experience so that the person in the job can do this work easier and maybe doesn't need quite so much training or there isn't quite so much risk of them not being trained.
[00:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: So there's a lot of benefits to doing this.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: So there was an example that I thought you'd find interesting, which was more of like a distribution center type organization. And we were seeing they had a good amount of turnover, but one of the things that was, is this the
[00:10:36] Speaker A: company that had 400% turnover.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: This is not. But this is really interesting in that they looked at how long it took for them to train somebody up, and then they also looked at this staff in terms of how much could they help contribute to revenue. And so basically they felt like if they didn't fill all of their lines, they would be leaving a lot of revenue on the table. Right. They needed to be able to pick, pack and ship, you know, as quickly as possible. The biggest detriment to their revenue would be not being able to staff those lines and pick, pack and ship. And so they also then looked at these cost implications. Right. And so they said, really, how long does it take for us to train somebody up to pick, pack and ship within a very simple model?
Do you know how long they came up with how long it took to train them?
[00:11:23] Speaker A: A day.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: A day. So it took a day. Okay, so this is a very different model. Right. We were talking about restaurant models where it maybe takes three weeks or a month to train somebody up. We were talking about replacing your car windshield and maybe that.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: I don't know who this is, but I have an interesting story to follow this. Go ahead.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah, and it's one day. And so then you would say okay, well then the most important thing is to keep your lines full. You can train somebody up within a day. What should your hiring process look like? And they said, well, we can hire in five to 10 minutes because really if they're qualified to work, they're eligible to work in the US they're over the age of blank and they're able to lift 50 pounds and they're able to work the shift schedule. We'd love to see them, we'd love to have them come in. We're going to treat them really well. We're going to train them for that day. We're going to give them great managers who now have time kick packing shift. But ultimately if they leave within a week, they still were a net positive hire for us.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: Let me run another one by you that you just jogged my memory. So I think it was FedEx and if it wasn't FedEx, I apologize to UPS or whoever it was.
One of the shipping companies, when I was doing research on L and D, told me that one of the biggest levers they had for distribution was carefully packing the trucks. So, so there was no empty space because if you could put 10 or 15% more stuff into the trucks, you could reduce the number of trucks, save a huge amount of money on gas and maybe get stuff to people faster. And it turned out it's very, very tricky to pack a truck correctly. It's a very tough geometry problem plus a weight problem. I was interviewing an L and D person that they built this complex training program to show you all of the permutations of truck packing, I guess you'd call it packing, I'm not sure, or loading to optimize the amount of material that would go into the truck without breaking your neck and hurting yourself. Now I remember the conversation, it was a long time ago. And he said as a result of this training program, which we had to spend a lot of time building because we didn't have it, we had to interview a lot of people to figure out what right process would be. So we found out we saved millions and millions of dollars in fuel and transportation costs as a result.
So some of these training related issues in the front line have such massive financial implications in the company that they can lead you to do really interesting things to rethink the work. So it's almost like two examples at different polar ends to the same problem of let's train them fast so we can crank them through in a hurry versus let's train them slow so we don't need to do so. Much of this, yeah.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: And we'll have to get some experts within the healthcare space. But nurses has been one of my favorite topics within the space because it's just in such high demand and there is higher turnover. And what are some of the most innovative healthcare companies doing to be able to find and retain talent there? I think that's something that even from different industries we should all look at because you're having to be so creative and innovative.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Kathy and I did a lot of work on healthcare a couple years ago. I came to the conclusion that healthcare HR people are the most innovative and creative of any industry I've ever met. Way beyond banks and the high tech software companies.
They really know what they're doing because they have such a talent shortage to deal with.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: You have to. So this kind of brings us to one of our segments, Josh, which is just us highlighting a case study. I wish I had a healthcare one, but I wanted to share this one with you because I don't think I've gotten to talk to you about it. So this one is interesting because it's about an organization that shifted from a majority part time work to shifting those roles into full time. And it's a favorite topic of yours and mine because we always talk about high turnover within Frontline, but actually if you buy for Kate Frontline part time and Frontline full time roles, there's actually a pretty stark difference in terms of turnover rate. You have full time roles have much lower turnover typically. And so I thought this was really interesting. This is a restaurant group called Southern Rock Hospitality and they have about 150 McAllister Delis. Have you ever been to a McAllister Delis? It's delicious.
And so they were hiring.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: I live in California. Everything's craft.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: We're just gonna do like a QSR tour, but really good. So their numbers are pretty interesting. They really changed their process around both hiring but also how they were staffing. And so first off, they found that they were hiring too slow. So they rolled out some automation, went from 10 days to 36 hours to hire. And part of the reason they wanted to do that because when they looked across the 150 stores, 72% of their stores were understaffed. Back to that example we had where if you're understaffed, your revenues are having an impact. So part one was stop the bleeding staff fast. They got very quickly to a place where they actually got their staffing levels regulated. Once they got their staffing levels regulated, they started to see that their manager turnover started to Drop as well. So manager turnover, this is pretty high, was 70% and they over time were able to drop it to about like single digits, which is pretty cool. But one of the pieces I thought was really neat. And this is Courtney Dempsey, who's their head of people analytics that's over there that shares this story. But once they started to stop the bleeding on getting short term staff, what they started to play around with was, wow, when we found somebody spectacular, we offered them a full time role. Now that sounds like, oh well, that's what everybody does. Right. They find somebody spectacular and actually it doesn't happen as much, especially within restaurant or retail space. So what they started to do is really shift their population to be fewer, better workers. Right. And so those people then took on more hours in a lion's share and say they saw their turnover drop and then their revenues start to really increase.
And I just love that. Going from understaffed restaurants being at a chronic sort of 70 plus percent to essentially not struggling with it at all.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: So if you, if the company has the option of full time versus hourly or part time, what generally do you find that tends to push companies towards one or the other? Is it just availability of talent or strategy?
[00:17:29] Speaker B: I'd say it's strategy and flexibility. I think if there was consistent hours and it's a role that's particularly hard to train up for or is scarce, you'll see full time in retail. It's just tricky because you typically don't have enough time.
You maybe just don't have a. Yeah, you're, you're spiking Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you're spiking seasonally. And so you're going to save your full time roles probably more for your manager positions. And so it's not that people have it right or wrong, but I do think it's interesting that company had enough
[00:17:59] Speaker A: flexibility to move in one direction or the other. Yeah.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: When you have it and can you make some bets on that? And I think in restaurants, I wonder if we start to see that a little bit more and or at least have some people a B test within different stores to see that cost effectiveness, another dimension. Our next one, Josh. So this is our segment. It's a little bit of fun with Josh Burson because we all think of you up on stage, we all see you in the blazer. So when you are not in the blazer and I feel like your shirt is maybe going to give this away, when you're not in your blazer, when Josh Ferson puts on his T shirt and sweats. I'm not sure if that happens. What's your go to sweatshirt?
[00:18:35] Speaker A: My mother who has passed basically said I was a preppy kid from 6 years old on just pop collars. I have always had a polo shirt or some kind of a preppy outfit or a button down shirt. My dad was a scientist. My father used to wear plaid shorts, black socks and loafers.
So I got one step up from that. I'm not an athleisure type of person. Every now and then I'll do it, but I'm pretty much a preppy from beginning to end.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: I need to send you some vintage hoodies.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: Please do, because I don't even know how to pick that stuff out.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: My favorite retail experience, I've got a couple. So our family, my wife works at Abercrombie and so I still.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: You've got a wardrobe of. You must have a killer wardrobe.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Oh, I mean that's great because that's something that's still sort of in my blood and it's been fun to watch their successes. And then there's a company called Buck Mason who you walk in and they just give you the great experience. And so that's been really neat because you talk with these store associates and they know everything about everything from the music to the denim. But I just kind of keep my eye out for really elegant retail experiences and maybe a shout out to Nordstrom where I just feel like they've always set the bar pretty great. Maybe just in closing back to that segmentation model. This is really fun. I can't wait for us to go almost square by square. But any closing comments you have here. Where do you hope we go?
[00:20:00] Speaker A: What's next thing to this to do is if you would like to contribute to this research, it's really important that we hear from you because some of the companies out there may be using segmentation approaches that we haven't thought of. Because I think this idea of segmentation is really massively important in deciding what you mean by Frontline. Yeah, I don't think most companies have the patience to do it. The level of detail we do, but we'll learn a lot. So I would say our eyes and ears are open if anybody listening to this has good ideas.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: Yeah, love that. And if you're an expert or have you already done this within your industry, we'd love to pull you on the podcast. And Josh, kudos and credit to your team. I mean what I'm seeing from the early versions is you have a framework that will be helpful it's going to break down different roles within Frontline, but then you're also starting to layer on top of that industry.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: You probably saw the preview of this. But what we're going to do is once we get the segmentation nailed down, we're going to go into the BLS job descriptions and industry by industry will be able to show you the typical job titles in your industry and where they fit on the segmentation matrix. So you'll be able to have a ready to use tool to decide how to change recruiting practices or pay or management or whatever it may be.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Cause especially looking at that, I mean, maybe doing this now, especially your team and the brains that are on it from even 10 years ago, 10 years ago, it could have been some best practices, it could have been pulling these things apart. But now being able to layer on top, where can automation be applied, where can AI be applied? Where can robotics be applied? I think that's really fascinating.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: And then you stick it into Galileo and Galileo tells you how much can be automated. Yeah, I think hopefully we'll really help people refine their Frontline strategies. Josh, thanks for bringing that up.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah. On future podcasts, we can't wait. This is something that we're going to try and do this monthly and just keep a spotlight on your research and what's going on in Frontline and excited to share more case studies, have some guest speakers on and really, as your research unveils in real time, we can pressure test it and bring people on and start to hopefully help quite a bit. So thank you for your investment and time and spotlighting such an important segment of our pocket.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Thank you, Josh. It's going to be good. Thank you very much.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Great.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: Bye for now.
