Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Okay, so this week I'm going to.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Talk a lot about the labor market.
[00:00:10] Speaker A: And the demographics and the psychology and the moods and careers of the labor market. I also have a great interview with Linda Grattan, which will come on in a minute. Linda is a professor, business school professor at the London School of Business. She's really interesting to listen to. She's written a whole bunch of books. I spent quite a bit of time with her a year and a half ago when she and I met with the king and queen and a bunch of people in the Netherlands about the future of work. It was really fun, so I think you'll enjoy that. But the essential theme that I want to talk about today is the fact that we as organizations exist in a pool or an ocean of labor. And when the labor market changes, we have to change. And so there's two colliding factors that are taking place at the same time. One, of course, is labor shortages, which we've talked about a lot. You know, the low birth rate, the low fertility rate. In fact, you know, I was reading this week that even in Sweden, where mothers get 48 weeks of paid leave mandatory and fathers get to work 75% out of hours at 100% of pay for the first eight years of their children's lives, and daycare and education is virtually free, their fertility rate is 1.6. So all of these government policies that are trying to improve the fertility rate aren't really working. So we've got that issue. But the bigger one is that, as we talked about with Linda, as people live longer, they have these careers where they move in and out of different roles. They go to school, they go to work, they go back to school, they change careers, they work part time, they work as gigs, they work as contractors, then they go full time, then they go part time. We are now living in a world where that's possible.
And I was challenging Linda a little bit in the conversation, and she really believes in this and she's been writing about it. I do, too. I mean, I've been fortunate enough to have a career like that later in life. But I know a lot of you get thrust into part time gig contract work because you get laid off or the company goes through a restructuring that's really going to become the new norm. When I was at Deloitte, we did a survey, and it continues to be true. 60% to 70% of people under the age of 35 already do gig work. And there's more opportunities for gig work than ever. So as the workforce itself becomes more dynamic, or pixelated, as I call it. We have to accommodate that in our companies. The linear career path, the hierarchical job levels, and the patience that we ask people to have inside of our companies doesn't necessarily work when the workforce is expecting more. And that is this issue that I've talked about a lot called employee activation, where the employees tell us what they want, we don't tell them what we want. And that is actually a great business strategy, because if you can accommodate the needs, your people, they're going to be more engaged, they're going to be more productive, they're going to spend more time with you. You know, in the nursing and healthcare industry, for example, it's very common for where there's a massive shortage for companies to give nurses the opportunity to work 10 hours a day, four days a week, three days a week, very flexible shifts, childcare in the facilities, if it's appropriate, so people can bring their kids to work and then they can work and visit their kids. Things like that, that you may think are strange, like a four day workweek are going to become common because they're going to be demanded by workers. Now, one of the aspects of this that's important is that as I've talked about, the workforce demographics, or rather the population of the workforce is shifting very quickly towards a much, much younger average. The average age is going to be, or rather the median is going to be around 31. In fact, I think it is now in the US and probably lower than that in some countries. So we're now accommodating the demands and expectations of people that are much earlier in their careers, many of whom are not as happy, not as satisfied, not as sure what they're going to do with their lives. They're postponing marriage, postponing having children. And so our ability to give them a great social experience at work, a dynamic career, is essential to us running our companies well. And that flips over to the organizational side of what we call the dynamic organization, which I've talked about a lot. This comes up a lot. I've had this conversation all week. In fact, on Tuesday, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about Bayer, who has now adopting an agile organizational model for structure, roles, projects and work. I think we're going to be talking to the Chro of Bayer in a couple weeks. You know, that's a big change for a massive pharmaceutical and science company like that. But Telstra did it, Unilever's done it, Nestle does it, other companies do this, and it is absolutely the future. The research we've done on that, which is very extensive, we did this in partnership with Gloat, showed that the dynamic organizations in the maturity model we developed are seven times more successful at innovation, market leadership, profitability, and all sorts of financial measures than those that are what we call static. And everybody has to be dynamic. By the way, speaking of dynamic stuff, one more thing before I let you talk to and hear from Linda. We also are beginning to see the dynamic nature of the tech industry. I'm going to be speaking at the unleashed conference in May out here in Vegas, and then also at the HR tech conference in Europe in May. And I have to tell you, AI is very, very scary.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: What's going on?
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Major AI companies collapsed this week. One was more or less acquired by Microsoft, the other one just disintegrated. And the essential issue is that the cost of running AI, the compute or compute power needed and the platforms needed, is so massive that if you don't have billions of dollars, you can't run, you can't create an AI platform company. And that means that the application companies are going to be huge, but the platform companies are going to be much fewer in number. And I think this is just venture capitalists beginning to come to grips with where the market's going. So that's another example of how dynamic things are. We'll talk about AI more in the next one. So anyway, I want you to hear a little bit about what Linda's got going on. She's got a lot of really important perspectives on the changing nature of the workforce, the impact of the hundred year life, and her particular perspectives on what makes people successful in these new world we live in. We have a lot of just absolutely incredible stuff happening for irresistible this year. The conference is already more or less half sold out, so there's only 450 seats. It's really designed for senior HR leaders and your teams. We don't have vendors there. We don't have consultants there. So if you're in the HR profession, I hope you can come, and I won't go through the whole agenda for you right now. So let's listen to Linda and then I'll wrap up very quickly at the end. Have a good week. I've got some really cool stuff to talk about next week as well.
[00:07:58] Speaker C: Talk to you later.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Okay, Linda, so we met more than a year ago with the king and queen of the Netherlands, which was really exciting.
[00:08:07] Speaker C: It was.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Why don't you just briefly tell everybody who's listening to the podcast about your background and what you do. And then I want to talk about the hundred year life a little bit, because that's what I know you as. One of the most famous things you've done from my perspective.
[00:08:20] Speaker C: Well, I'm Linda Grattan. I'm professor of management practice at the London business School, and I've written ten books. And my real focus of attention is how does the world, how is the world changed and how is it going to change? And so I look at a whole bunch of questions about demography. I look at generative AI, as we all are doing, and then more recently I've been looking at freelancers and really what's happening with that? So anything to do with future of work? I'm always fascinated in ten books.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Wow. I mean, I've done two or three and I'm not doing it again. It's too much work. My hat's off.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: Everybody always says that. And then they do. We'll have to watch you.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Okay, so let's talk about the future of work a little bit and the perspective that I have. And I want to get your thoughts. I mean, the book that struck me, that really hit me was the 100 year life, which is one of your, I think, one of your most famous books. From my perspective, it helped us think through the impact of longevity on the workforce and the HR function and the labor market. But now we have this other really interesting information that because the baby boomers are starting to retire, the workforce is suddenly getting very, very young.
And what we're hearing from the research we're looking at is that the younger part of the workforce is actually rethinking everything in terms of their life, their commitment to organizations, their mental health issues, their social lives, etcetera. From the standpoint of the 100 year life, what's your perspective on all this?
[00:10:02] Speaker C: Well, thanks for the question, Josh. It's a great question. So of all the books that I've written, the hundred year life is indeed the one that got the most traction. It sold over a million copies. It's gone into many, many languages. It was the best selling business book in Japan, and we sold half a million copies in China. Now, why, of course, we sold in those two countries is that Japan is aging faster than any other country. But if you looked in the next few years, China is going to age faster than Japan. And of course, the size of China makes it an enormous demographic issue. So here's the thing. In most developed countries, two things are happening to really change the demography. The first is that people are living longer and expectations of living to 100 aren't unimaginable. And at the same time, we're having fewer children. And so developed countries are aging very quickly and that has massive implications. Just only today you saw, I'm sure, Larry Fink's report from Blackrock saying there's a massive pension crisis. And when Andrew Scott and I looked at this question in our book, Andrew is an economist. So that was incredibly helpful to have an economist plus a psychologist. What we really began to realize is that when you think that you're going to live to 100 and Josh, I'm sure looking at you now, you're going to live a lot longer than 100.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: I hope so.
[00:11:32] Speaker C: Yeah, you're looking pretty fit.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: I've got some genes that are not so great. We'll see how they work.
[00:11:37] Speaker C: Okay. It's amazing what they're doing these days. But if you think you're going to live to 100, then you'll be working until you're in your seventies. And so if you think, well, I'm going to work into my seventies, then clearly the three stage life of full time education, full time work, full time retirement looks impossibly inflexible. And so what we're beginning to see is people of every age saying, this isn't working for me. So if you're in your fifties now, you're saying this isn't going to work for me because I don't want to retire at 60. I want to carry on doing exciting things. If you're in your thirties, you're saying this isn't working for me because I want to take time off. I want to start my own business. I want to be a freelancer. And if you're in your twenties, you're saying, you know, I need to have a multi stage life. So it isn't just young people. I don't think, Josh, I think all of us in our own way are saying the three stage life is dead. But, and here's the problem.
Academics, you know, as you know, Josh, have some wonderful words. And the one I'm going, my to favorite one at the moment is the fact that whilst we might want something that's going to happen, it is under institutionalized. That's the academic word for it, which is to say what we want is not yet there in terms of government policy, corporate policy, even educational policy. Now that's beginning to change. And one of the things that I do, Josh, is I look really carefully at what is happening in, in education, in governments, in corporations that is allowing you, will enable you in fact, invite you to have a multistage life. So that's really where we are at the moment. It's not really working for anyone. And of course, for younger people, they're most anxious about that because they've got 50 years of work ahead of them and they're saying, how am I going to do that now? The good news for them is institutions are changing very fast at the moment. And so when you, you know, when you're young and you look forward, what you tend to do is to think, and I see this in my MBA students who I teach, that you tend to think that you're going to change, but the world's going to stay the same. But what I'm saying to them is, look, don't worry. The world is going to change, so it will change. And we're already seeing some of the changes.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: There's this interesting theme we picked up, Linda, that is exactly aligned with what you're saying, which we call employee activation. And the idea is that rather than employees accommodating the job, the employees are asking the job to accommodate them.
You know what I mean? And I think that sense of pushback is starting to hit the Chros, the CEO's, the managers in companies, and they're realizing they have to just adapt to how they hire people and how they develop people and how they move people and how they give people opportunities. But from your perspective, I mean, I talk to companies all the time, so I'm pretty familiar with what's going on there. What do you think the government or educational issues are that you advise some of these big organizations or big entities to deal with, and then we can talk more about businesses in a minute.
[00:14:58] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I think governments, one of the things that governments need to do is to encourage people to work longer and also to try and think about ageism. Now, I know despite the fact that certainly in the US right now you have rather aging leaders, the truth is that in many companies right now over 50 is considered, you're not going to be able to do this job, and ridiculous ideas about how your intelligence goes down and so on and so forth, which is completely unsubstantiated. And so I think governments are beginning to think about, well, how do we encourage people to work longer? I, as you know, Josh sat on Prime Minister Abe's council in Japan for three years, helping them think about how do they forge a better way of thinking about people as they age. And it was interesting in Larry Fink's piece this morning that he pulled out Japan as an example of a country that's having a conversation about what happens when everybody ages as it's doing so, I think governments are changing. Education has really focused on young people. I feel embarrassed to tell you that at London business school, we don't really do a great deal for people beyond their mbas unless they come back on our short executive programs. That's beginning to change. We've had a real conversation within the faculty about how can we encourage people, particularly our alumni, to come back and engage in education right the way through their life? And I think you're seeing, you know, one of the marvelous things about markets, Josh, and you know this well, is they're very good at responding to needs, and one of the needs that sometimes.
[00:16:39] Speaker B: The educational institutions don't behave that way.
[00:16:43] Speaker C: Ah, yes. Well, they are, they, as you know, are very much shielded from market realities. But even that's beginning to change. And even one of the top.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: So somebody my age could go back.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: To UC Berkeley and I could get.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: An undergraduate degree in computer science or something with a bunch of 20 year olds who are, you know, basically gamers.
[00:17:02] Speaker C: Well, or else. Or else you could, I mean, you know, the program I teach at London Business School, which is about the future of work, we get, I get in my classroom people from the age of 23 right up to the age of 50. And honestly, Josh, it's a fantastic, I'm from all over the world, 42 nationalities this time. It's a fantastic group. So there's a lot to be said for the generations spending time with each other. You know, that's one of the ways that we overcome ageism, is that you hang out with a 50 year old, or in my case, a 70 year old, and say, whoa, they're pretty interesting.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: What do you think?
[00:17:39] Speaker B: So, I mean, I totally agree with you 100%.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: What do you think? Given that you've been to Japan and.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: Talked to these other countries? If people go back to this, they throw away the three stages of life, and they start reeducating themselves at different points in their career. How well will employers accommodate that? Or. First of all, it's expensive. It takes a lot of time. And if you're in the middle of your life and you have children or a mortgage, it's a little bit hard to do anyway. And then when you come back out of that, going back into the workforce, people are like, well, you're some old person who just went to college again. What do we do with you?
[00:18:15] Speaker C: Well, I think, you know, the points that you make are spot on, Josh. That there are issues that organizations face and individuals face. But let me give you an example of something that I find really fascinating. And this is the research that Diane Gerson and I have just finished. And Dan, as you know, was the chro of IBM. She and I have worked together before. We've worked together again. And we have a Harvard business review article coming out in may about freelancers. And what we've discovered is that actually, well, a couple of things. Firstly, right now, and as you look forward, up to 40% of people are going to work independently. They're not going to work full time. For a company. That's an astonishing number. And secondly, you know, when we looked at that initially, we said, okay, well, they're just gig workers. You know, they're people doing, delivering or making our coffee or, you know, cutting our hair. They're not. A whole bunch of them are skilled freelancers. And in fact, that's the group that Diane and I interviewed and the companies that take them on. That's what we, that's what we talk about in the Harvard Business Review article about skilled freelancers. And that, I think, is going to give people a great opportunity, because to be a skilled freelancer has got two benefits. One, of course, you have more autonomy, but secondly, you get the opportunity to work across different types of companies. And that means you're not just stuck by understanding retail banking, for example. You're also understanding what's happening in the pharmaceutical industry or just the sort of breadth, Josh, that you've experienced because you've looked at many companies, as I've done, but most people don't. So I think we are beginning to see the institutionalization of a more flexible way of working.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: Okay, so let me ask you about that. So a lot of, most of the people listening to this podcast are HR people, but there's going to be others. So personally, I was thrown into freelance work by force when I was laid off. So I learned about it and became comfortable with it. But most people who've worked for a company for a long time struggle to figure out how do I get a client? How do I engage with a project when I'm not in the company? And I don't know everybody, I don't have an office. Is this the new skill set everybody's going to have to learn?
[00:20:33] Speaker C: Well, interestingly, and I know you and I are following the technology very carefully at the moment, Josh, but the reason why this is happening is because of platforms that are bringing together individuals and organizations. So there are currently, I think we found out there were 500 platforms in the world right now that allow you both to find a company that you could work with on a project. And there are also platforms like a team that actually bring teams together and then hand them over to the company and say they'll do your pr for you or they'll do your new media strategy. So it wasn't going to work. I agree with you, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be a freelancer, but that's changing fast. And if you ask young people, as some of the studies have, do you expect to be working independently? I mean, I think it's 60 or 70% are saying yes. When I ask my MBA students, how many of you are expecting to have a portfolio life where you do lots of different things at the same time? About 70% put their hand up and I said, yeah, yeah, I know, but what you're doing is doing it when you're 60. They said, no, we're going to do it now.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: So portfolio life, that's a great phrase. I like that. That's one way to think about it. So the problem that I've run into with people that do this, many people are sort of early retired because maybe they were forced out of a company they didn't want to be, but they just got stuck. Is their sole proprietors. They're stuck on their own. Maybe they're not sort of a business development mentality. It's very intimidating. So you're saying that, I don't know what a team is, but you're saying you think that people will have groups they can join to work together on projects without having to take a full time job in a company.
[00:22:28] Speaker C: Well, I think also, by the way.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: It'S lonely to be an individual contributor all the time.
[00:22:33] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I agree, Josh, and I think so this is something that we're watching. One of the things that I love doing as an academic is sort of to watch institutional forms change. And the one we're watching at the moment is exactly this because early research on freelancers said exactly what you said, Josh, which is to say they feel anxious about their next job, they're worried that they don't have any friends, blah, blah, blah. That's beginning to change. And it's beginning to change for two reasons. Firstly, because as I mentioned, there are platforms that are reducing the friction between you and finding a job. And secondly, there are now communities of practice that are joining together so that you can, you know, meet other people who are like you.
Particularly. This is happening particularly in cities and, and actually have friends and colleagues. Now, I don't think that people are going to be freelancers for the whole of their lives. You know, when you think about a multi stage life, this could just be part of it. But I do think that it gives the possibility of greater freedom. And I think in the end, that's what people want. If you're going to live 100 years, you're going to work into your seventies, you need some sort of independence, some sort of way of coming in and out in a slightly more independent way.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Well, I completely agree.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: That's really interesting.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: I'm looking forward to reading this. So inside of companies, I'd like to get your perspective on what's going on inside of companies. So we spent all this time with big companies and HR departments. There's this massive interest in talent marketplaces, gig work inside of companies, and even job sharing. Like a lot of companies are starting to realize, well, maybe you can do this job three days a week and somebody else will do it two days a week, so you can have the other two days to do things with your grandchildren or whatever it may be.
What's your perspective? I mean, my sense is this stuff's taking off as a whole new business model inside of companies and how to run their business.
[00:24:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. In my last book, redesigning work, one of the cases I looked at was the case of Unilever. And as you know, Josh, they've got this third way that they've announced which allows you as a full time employer to work on projects.
And I think the point I asked them, which was last year, they already had 4000 people signed up to that. I don't know where they are this year. I need to ask. But yes, I can see, see that people are trying to make that happen. Now. Can I say something important about this, Josh, which I think is really important for our audience in HR, when it works, it works because there are job flows which are understood. There are good productivity measures that are understood, and without that, it all begins to look very bitty. So my plea to HR is, if you want to do any of this, you have got to understand how workflows in your organization. You've got to understand and what the tasks are, what productivity is. You need to be able to measure productivity. Without that, this flexibility doesn't work because leaders are worried that it means flexibility means lower productivity. And I have CEO's last week who said that to me.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: So in other words, there's this misconception that if I don't know what you're doing all day, and I can't see you. You're not being productive.
[00:26:00] Speaker C: Well, and also, if you're going off for a four month sabbatical or you, you're taking other ways of coming in and out of the work, I need to understand what the project is and what your productivity is. So I think there is an issue of trust, but I think it's actually more fundamental than that, Josh. It's actually an issue that says, is the work getting done. And I think that this year particularly, Josh, I don't know how you're seeing this. Certainly in Europe, where I am, there's a real push at the moment on productivity, a concern about the economics.
HR has got to be at the forefront of saying to their CEO, look, this is going to increase productivity. It's not going to reduce it.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: Bravo.
[00:26:49] Speaker C: That for me is a very big issue for HR right now.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: I completely agree.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: That's fantastic.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Let me throw something at you that.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: I believe is in the way of this, and we call this the industrial age versus the post industrial age. If you've seen the stuff we've been doing. One of the reasons this is hard is because all of the infrastructure in HR was built around the idea of a job, a job level, a job hierarchy, a functional hierarchy. And we measure your productivity by the number of widgets or whatever you're responsible for in this job. Reporting to this manager who has another number of widgets that he's responsible for. That's how productivity is measured. If we start moving people around, we have to measure productivity through projects or initiatives, right?
[00:27:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: There's no infrastructure. We're doing that. Workday doesn't know what a project is. SAP doesn't know what a project is. The financial systems don't know what a project is.
[00:27:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
So I agree. And I think the other thing to add to that is skills, that you measure people by their skills. Now, if you want to look at best practice there, it's in two sectors, as you know, it's in the consulting sector that were always project based.
BCG totally understand about projects. And the second is some of the technology platforms. So, for example, we've written a number of cases about how TCS, which now employs, I think, more than half a million people, actually is entirely project based. So there is, this is really the point I was making earlier, Josh, about workforce workflows. By workflows, I mean, you know, where is the work happening? Who's doing it, and indeed, why are they doing it? Well, that's another probably the issue that we run.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: I get this. The issue that we run into is actually the financial systems were not designed to measure work this way. So we have companies like TCS and Deloitte. Of course, they do that because they measure the financials through project profitability. But project profitability isn't really measured by the CFO unless they are very enlightened in how they think about the company. Unilever, I think, built. In fact, I think Unilever spun off a whole company to figure out how to do the financial analysis of all this. Is that the name of it?
[00:29:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. So this is something that's worth watching. And in the last Harvard Business Review article that Diane and I wrote, which was about managers, we actually look specifically at a company called Telstra, which is the big australian telecoms, which is an entirely different industry than consulting or tcs, and they had also become project based. So this is why, you know, I say to the HR department function, you need to think about workflows. It's not just the finance department that are going to have to do that. It's actually the HR department really have to get their head around how workflows, why people do what they do, and, you know, whether they're doing the right thing. Just as an aside, Josh, you perhaps know that after the Microsoft data show that after the pandemic, the number of meetings that people had went up by 50%. So the first thing I say to any HR group I'm advising is get rid of the. Get rid of the meetings. Number one, too many meetings.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: So one more thing. I know we don't have a lot of time. I want to ask you one more question. This is kind of a little bit of a tricky one, but I'm sure you've got some interesting perspectives. So I was reading the World Happiness report last week. If you've ever read it, you probably.
So the sort of two things that struck me, number one, the United States has dropped into the sixes. We're now number 23.
Last year, I think we were number ten or something. The second is youth. Happiness is far below older people's happiness in virtually every developed country.
[00:30:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: And they were, and the authors made a big deal about that. They actually spent a lot of time talking about it.
What do you think? Is that this career issue, what's your perspective on that? I know there's many, many aspects to that, but I'm curious.
[00:31:04] Speaker C: Well, first of all, if you take a look at the countries at the very top of their happiness, they're mostly the Nordics, and they're high tax countries with relatively low inequality. So the data is pretty clear on that. That if you need to have a pretty strong social fabric of education, childcare and so on, for people to be happy, and we don't have that in the UK, you don't have that in the US. But I think we have to acknowledge that the context is making a big difference to people's happiness. The second is, if you take a look at happiness across the life stage, we know it goes up and down. We know that. We've known that data for years. The happiest people tend to be in their sixties and seventies, and the unhappiest people tend to be in their late thirties and forties when they are in this awful sandwich of looking after their kids, looking after their parents, trying to do well at work. The fact that young people are not happy is very concerning. And I agree with you, Josh, and I've been looking at that data myself. I think there's still a big pandemic overhang those people, and this is certainly how we've been interpreting that data in the UK.
Many of those people came into universities during the pandemic.
They had a horrible time. I don't think we've really come to terms with the impact that the pandemic had on the mental health of young people. So one of the things I would say and certainly say to my MBA students is find jobs that you really like. Get into the office, spend time with people, do not do jobs where you're sitting at home on your own. This is what you did during the pandemic, and it makes you unhappy and lonely, because one of the major triggers for unhappiness in young people is that they're lonely.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. That's a huge issue.
All right, Linda, I could talk to you for about 2 hours about this stuff. We'll have to find another king and queen that want to invite us to some wonderful event together.
[00:33:12] Speaker C: The world is full of fun.
[00:33:15] Speaker B: All right. Thank you so much for your time today.
[00:33:17] Speaker C: My pleasure, Josh. Lovely to see you.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: You too. Okay, thanks a million.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: Okay. Lots and lots of food for thought there. I'm going to wrap it up here and we can continue discussing this topic as more information comes in on what's going on in the labor market. If you have any stories of flexible work accommodations, designs, dynamic career models, things that you're doing in your company, please let us know. We'd love to tell people about it or write about it or share it in any way that you feel comfortable, and we'll talk more next week. Bye for now.
Sa.
