Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Chros of today are really business drivers. You know, we really are responsible for shaping the workforce of tomorrow. It's less about the workforce of today anymore. It's much more about what's the workforce of tomorrow and how do you stay ahead of those trends, I think is becoming so, so critical.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Welcome to a new episode of the what Works podcast series. That was Karen McGarry, CHRO of ICF. In this episode, Cathy Anderis talks with Karen about the evolving role of the chro and her journey to leadership. The two explore how CHROs can have a greater impact by building strategic partnerships, understanding business priorities, and adopting a transformational mindset. Let's take a listen.
[00:00:51] Speaker C: Karen, welcome to the what Works podcast. I'm so excited to have you.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.
[00:00:58] Speaker C: We're going to have just an amazing conversation about your role as Chro and how you got to where you are and also what you advise CEOs, CHROs and HR leaders on making their role and the role of the chro more impactful. So let's start with you. Let's start with what's Karen's story and how did you get where you are today?
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah, so I'm a little non traditional in that I really started my career in talent acquisition, although I will say later, I think there's something to be said for that in the role of chro's currently. But when I got out of college, you know, I was the daughter of a naval officer and a nurse and they were sort of like, we don't know what to do with you and your business degree. And so my mom had a wonderful suggestion and that was that I should study, start to temp around in the area, learn about some of the businesses that were here at that time and sort of think about the type of industry that I might want to be a part of. And so I started to do that and ended up actually getting hired by the temp company into their company, which is what started me in talent acquisition. And so I did that for just actually only a few months. I ended up, I was a job fair and I got recruited to work at an Internet startup company that was here in the D.C. market as a recruiter. And that was really my foray into talent acquisition in the corporate environment. And after doing that for a couple of years, I went to the head of HR at the time and I was curious about the HR side of the house and wanted to know, should I go back to school?
Should I, you know, what, what, what was the, the path for that. And she was of the mindset at that time that experience sort of outweighed the educational aspect. Although I think the world of degrees in HR has come a very long way since I was part of it. So she said, listen, we'll get you some projects, you know, blah, blah, blah. So it turns out that our company was in the process of being acquired and one of the HR leaders in the organization resigned. And so she said, okay, you know, here's your shot and let's give it six months. And you know, if you like it and you're doing well, then you can keep, keep the role. And so then I kind of went over into the HR side at that point and did that for five or six years. And you know, and eventually what ended up happening was I took this kind of combination of talent acquisition and HR generalist, hr, business partner work, and really sort of began to, to weave together this sort of talent management, talent acquisition oriented career, career. And so I expanded my focus to things like organizational design, got into talent assessment, leadership development. That was sort of the first 15 years of my career, which was all in telecommunications. And then I took that and I went into a completely different industry, which was in the services business, in the government, you know, in the federal community and the intelligence community, which was a far cry from anything I had experienced before. And again sort of built up that same sort of talent acquisition, talent management portfolio in that firm. And then I actually went into media, which was then yet another departure completely from an industry perspective. And then ultimately to icf, which is where I am today. And I think all those different industries, you learn that everybody's dealing with the same kinds of problems. Organizations have the same ebbs and flows in their businesses. And what it's done is it's helped me to become a really pragmatic, results oriented leader. I just don't get caught up in the noise. I think when you've been inside of an organization, you tend to swirl in. I think the combination of all of those things is sort of what led me into the chro role here at icf.
[00:04:58] Speaker C: How did talent acquisition prepare you to be such an effective chro?
[00:05:02] Speaker A: I really think that this idea of talent acquisition is so important because the whole life cycle of talent really touches talent acquisition. Everything from the attraction to the selection to then integrating the people into the organization. The reality is as a member of a talent acquisition team, you're really part of that entire process, even when people exit the organization. And I think that that really helps you to understand all of the facets that go into what it takes to lead and build an HR function. So I remember, you know, early in my career thinking, why am I so closely connected to things like compensation and performance management in this role that I'm playing as a recruiter? Right. Particularly if you're more of a consultative mindset where you're really in with your client and you're really trying to understand that client's need, you really have to be connected to all those things. And so I think talent acquisition is really, really critical. You know, I also happen to do it in a services business where our revenue stream is 100% connected to our people. We don't have products that we buy and then ultimately sell.
[00:06:14] Speaker C: Well, the other thing I wanted to hone in on a little bit more is all the different industries that you went through, and you said everybody is kind of dealing with similar problems. Tell us a little bit more about, like, how that worked. What problems were you seeing across different industries and maybe where's them? Some differences between the industries you worked in?
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. I mean, the big difference around sort of, say, running talent in an organization like mine, which is, you know, talent to a revenue stream and running talent in a product company, probably more, just comes down to cost infrastructure. Right. You're either either part of the revenue stream or your overhead. But I think what makes it so similar, if you think about all of the things that we do in hr, those things are required in every organization. I always liken it to, like, cooking. There's a recipe, and you might see five or six of the same recipes, and how much or how little of one ingredient may shift a little bit, but the primary recipe is the same. And so I really do believe that across industries, you know, everybody needs strong learning programs. Everybody needs a blueprint for their workforce. Everybody needs to make sure they have the right recruiting strategy. It's really just taking the specifics of that particular organization into consideration and then figuring out how you apply, you know, your. Your. Your programmatic knowledge, you know, to that organization.
[00:07:45] Speaker C: This was so interesting. And it also got us to my next question. How do you see or do you see the Chro role actually changing? Is what used to be the CHR role making 15, 20 years ago. Is it still the same role? Is it changing? And if so, how much is it changing?
[00:08:03] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I think it's changed profoundly, even in just the last four years. Right. I mean, you think about where were we all in 2018 and 2019, and then where were we all in 2020 and since. Right. And the kinds of issues that we've been dealing with in the organization and what's gone on in, you know, in just in the business environment in general. So, you know, I really do think that, I think for a long time we've been working to move from sort of that very transactional operational role in an organization to being much more transformational. But I think that we've done that because I think that it's required now in every organization to have a much more, you know, transformational role. I think we've moved beyond just being a business partner. I think that chros of today are really business drivers. You know, we really are responsible for shaping the workforce of tomorrow. Know, we're, we're. It's less about the workforce of today anymore. It's much more about what's the workforce of tomorrow. And how do you stay ahead of those trends and understand what's going on out there? I think is becoming so, so critical. And so I think, you know, given this sort of future of work sits squarely in the hands of the chro. I mean, you have to lead now the different type of vision and agility and purpose. And by the way, let's not forget what's going on in the technology arena in our space. And now suddenly we all have to also be technologists and be able to understand, you know, what's happening out there in that landscape. And how do you both apply the technology to be able to scale your organizations but also be relevant to your workforce. Right. The employee expectation of organizations is not changing, you know, for they're not getting, it's not getting any easier and their expectations are only getting higher and they want to work in an organization that feels relevant and dynamic and fits with where they are in their career journey. And so the technology plays a huge role in all of that. And I think that's a whole new dynamic that's entered our space in the last couple of years.
[00:10:22] Speaker C: Wow. Absolutely. I loved how you called this from a business partner to a business driver. So technology oriented, data driven, probably agile, dynamic, all of these kind of things are more important than ever before. So how do you get there? How do you stay on top of all these things? How do you think about the future? How do you make sure that you're thinking ahead and not just managing for today?
[00:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, you have to stay connected. Right. I think it's a combination of a couple of things. I mean, there's certainly, you know, external, there's lots of thought Leadership. I'm a big follower of what the Josh Burson company is putting out there and I always have been. And I do think that's really ahead of a lot of it. But nevertheless, you have to consume it, you have to understand it, but then you have to listen to what's happening inside of your organization too. So you have to listen to your employees, you have to listen to your leaders, you have to listen to your CEO and your board and you have to take the measure of all of those things to sort of ultimately decide, you know, what's right for your organization.
And I think it really comes down to being, you know, pretty pragmatic, business centered. I think data is a huge component and something that we really have to understand and help us use the data to determine what level or levers we need to pull across, you know, talent management or performance or design.
And I think that, you know, really understanding having a deep knowledge of how HR supports and drives that business is really important. Pay attention to the data. Read a lot, you know, listen to what people are talking about, what they're asking about, you know, try to stay abreast that way.
[00:12:15] Speaker C: So I want to talk a little bit about the, your relationship and the relationship in general of Chro is with the CEO and with the lead. Do you see that has changed in the last few years?
[00:12:28] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. I mean, you know, I'm a first time Chro, which I think is important for people to know. So, you know, obviously I'm very biased. I think that it's really important that that relationship with the CEO and the Chro are very interconnect. But I, I really actually think that the most important thing to achieving that is to be sure that your people strategy really does align with the business goals and the more integrated that you are in what's happening in that business, I think allows you to be more effective across all fronts. It allows you to be more effective in running your own function, but it also allows you to be more effective in, you know, advising and coaching the CEO or even the rest of your peer group. Right. Who are also engaging with that CEO. And in the last few years the CEO and the CHRO really had to lock arms and navigate what was otherwise. You know, an environment with no playbook. You know, some of it is building a relationship and having enough credibility to even engage in the conversation, but then being able to bring all of what I just said to the table. Being pragmatic, not reacting to the big issues, you know, understanding the data and you know, really Making sure that you're sort of in there and centered with what's happening in the business and you can really, you know, advise and support real time on issues is really, really important now.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: That's fantastic. Well, I'd love to hear some advice that you have for CEOs, how they can better leverage, better establish relationships with the Chro, then for chros, how they can be more effective and more impactful, and then for people who want to be a chro at one point. So if you could give us a few words of advice for each of these groups.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. I mean, for CEOs, I think it's pretty simple. And that's just bring your chro into your world, right? The closer that your chro can be to you and to your organization, the more effective that person can be on your behalf when required. Now, in turn, I think that the chros have to do the things that I said. We have to be pragmatic, we really have to be results oriented and we have to be deeply connected, you know, with the business and really understanding how levers like talent branding or performance management or organizational design can really build stronger, more effective organizations. Your. Your third one was for those that are aspiring to do this role.
And I think, you know, I do think it's really important to gain experience across a bunch of different HR functions. Um, and by doing that, you're just going to strengthen your ability to work with senior leaders. Um, and so, you know, the more you can kind of have worked across, you sort of understand, you know, all how all of the functions within HR actually impact the business. I think that's more effective. So the more you can gain experience across all the functions I think is really important. I don't know that I really put one above another, but all of them require some technical competence, if you will. But moreover, it's really understanding more broadly how they impact the business.
[00:16:10] Speaker C: Fantastic. So CEO needs to invite the Chro to their world, right? But then the chro needs to take advantage of that and make sure that they actually can add the value and not just sit there and say, oh, great, now I'm in this world, but what are you going to do? How are you going to bring value to the C suite and to the CEO having this broader experience across different HR functions? So don't stick just to your lane if you're a rewards person. Also think about how you can broaden to talent acquisition or talent acquisition if you can go into OD or OE or learning and vice versa. And that aligns so well with what we're seeing in systemic hr, because we're talking about the full stack HR professional, because it's so important to understand how they all impact the business. And I love how you phrased it, not just how these work, because I think how these work is kind of important, how each of the domains work, but what's more important is what's the business impact? How do they influence the business to be successful? And I think that's, that's the most important thing. So thank you so much, Karen. I think people will learn a lot.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: No worries. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.
[00:17:24] Speaker C: Thanks for tuning in to this inspiring conversation with Karen McGarry, the CHRO of ICF. We talked about Karen's journey to the top HR job, how that chro role is rapidly transforming, the importance of aligning HR with business strategy and the value of diverse industry experience.
Karen's experience highlights the significance of being a strategic business person first and then an HR function leader second. For the chro, we also learned about the need for continuous learning to stay on top of evolving trends in today's dynamic environment.
Until next time, keep pushing the envelope on what works.
