Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: One of the biggest pitfalls of any HR organization is the moment you can just pick up an HR department and plug them in in a different company, then you're in trouble. HR should not just be close to the business. HR is the business, right? HR is as close to the business as your sales organization is or as your engineering organization is.
Welcome to a new episode of the what Works podcast series. That was Arnie Christian Van der Tang, Chro of TomTom. In this episode, Cathy and Darres talks with Arnie Christian about his unique journey into HR and the evolution of the Chro role. The two discuss the importance of staying close to the business, fostering innovation, and building a strong organizational culture that aligns with company goals. Let's take a listen.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Annikristian welcome to the what Works podcast.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Kathy. Great to be here.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: I'm so excited for our conversation. We're going to talk today about the role of the Chro and specifically your role and how you got to where you are today and what advice you have for others who might be aspiring to this role. So start with yourself, Anna Christian. Start with talking about yourself, your role, how you got to where you are.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Well, my journey in HR started in 1990. After finishing high school, I went into HR school. You know, I did went to university and it was HR studies and I chose that. And I thought, well, that's cool because, you know, that's where stuff happens and where people and where you can actually influence business outcomes. And I hated it. And I found myself with teachers and professors and they were all talking about the role of HR and how maybe, possibly HR at some point would be a management position training us to be HR advisors, if you will. So after three years, I decided to quit. And I actually remember calling my mom when I quit my studies. I said, mom, I promise you that I'm never, ever, ever going to work in hr. It's one promise I did not keep. And I said I to myself, okay, A.C. if you're going to stop your studies, you're going to quit your studies, you're going to be beautiful dropout, you can do that, but you're going to have to find your way the other way, right? So you're going to have to just work hard and learn and grow in companies and, and just do that. And I landed because obviously, you know, I was, you know, young and unemployed and did not have a college degree. I landed a job at Schiphol Airport, actually here in Amsterdam in a customer service function for an American freight forwarding company and that was just a temp job. But after a month or so, they asked me to become the manager of that department because they thought that I had something special, something extra. And that was great. And that was a great journey, actually. I spent the first six years of my career in logistics and freight forwarding and in team management roles, account management roles, and managing big logistics teams. So at some point I was managing over 100 people and I had a big P and L responsibility and I worked with customers, mostly in pharmaceutical and in technology until six years in this role. The company I worked for was a Texan freight forwarding company. And then our MD came to us and said, hey, Aaron Christian, didn't you at some point study HR or so? Because we really need someone to manage our growth. We were growing rapidly in EMEA and we were opening offices in different parts of the Middle East. As I said, no, no, no. I remember my mom's promise. And also I loved my job. I loved shipping things. Friday afternoon, when all the air freight was kind of leaving the docks, the job was done. I loved that part. And I was like, now what am I going to do in HR job? But obviously the rest is history because I've been in HR ever since.
And then TomTom approached me with a HR manager job, like 40% pay cut and, you know, maybe you want to do this. And that was the second big risk I took in my life. So I took that job. But I told myself, you know, so within a year they'll come to realize that they've actually hired someone who can operate on a bit of a higher level than the job that they offered me. And that happened.
So within a year I was asked to join what was then the consumer board, kind of leading our consumer unit from HR point of view. And I worked with one of the founders, did that for many years. And then 10 years ago, already in 2014, they've asked me to join the management board as Chro. So that's my story.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Wow, what a journey. So you tried to avoid hr, but you couldn't stay away, I guess, right?
[00:04:59] Speaker A: I could not myself, you know.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: You didn't really go into old school hr.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: No, I did not.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: Of these experiences that you had, which do you think was most useful or most impactful?
[00:05:12] Speaker A: The trust I was given has been most impactful. The reality is, of course, that I would not have been here, probably had my manager at the time not come to me when I was temping as a customer service agent, asking me whether I was hungry for a career in, if you will. And I did not see what he was seeing. I had never actually thought about oh maybe I can. This is the kind of company where I can progress this rapidly and without him nudging me and having the trust and the confidence that I could do that and I could actually live up to to his expectations, I would not have been here. And same at TomTom also I've the been in a very fortunate position to have always worked with TomTom's founders. Is obviously unique position to be in to work in a company that is more than 13 years old but is still founder led. Being trusted and being given the freedom to, to operate and to grow your own ambitions for that company, et cetera. I think that has been most impactful as also what I try to do in my team in reverse. So create as much of an environment that I can where trust and trust that people actually are so much more capable than what they actually think them. So that has been most impactful for me.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: The trust that your manager had in you inspired your confidence. Right.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: I learned so much about myself also and I also learned that this would be the trajectory and that I could actually achieve the things I was achieving there and the things I've been achieving at TomTom.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: What role do you feel that you played for the smaller company? How did that evolve and what's kind of the role that you're playing now at TomTom as the Chro?
[00:06:56] Speaker A: This is a great question. I think the role of Chro has evolved obviously in the corporate world and world of work. How I've approached the role and what I bring to the table obviously now 20 years on. So I've learned so much but my approach has not been very different. One of the publications that really resonates with me is actually the work that Burson Co. Had done on the strategic business part and the five different roles that you've identified as really important for a strategic business partner. And I think even when I was a more of a business partner also when I just joined TomTom or even now, those really resonate. And so I don't think my approach has really changed because I would or 15 years ago I would consider myself to be that and to strive to play those parts and play those role as a valuable asset to the company. And I think now I do it also but on a different level. And obviously as a Chro, the expectation also we're a publicly traded company is that and responsible role. Whereas in Eagle I was responsible for Emea as obviously it's very different But I think overall how I approach the role, understand the company, love the company that I work for, very passionate about that, Know the people, travel the world, make sure that they know who you are, but also, you know, ideally be in the production line sometimes or talk to software developers and try to get some handle on what it is that they're working on. I think all of that's really important. But how I've approached the role has not changed.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Staying close to the business, staying close to employees, loving the company, I think that's really important. Being passionate about what the company does. If you don't love the company and you're not passionate about what the company does, it's hard to be a good executive, but especially hard probably to be a good ch world.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: Well, absolutely. I think you need to be credible also. So one of the roles that you have determined is that influential storyteller. You cannot credibly engage your, in our case, Tom Thomas around the globe and not tell them insincerely that what it is that we're trying to do as a company actually is going to help our customers, is going to make lives of our customers easier. If, if I don't believe that, if I don't genuinely believe in the product that we're making and, and the, and, and how the company goes about it and the moral standards and the ethics of the company and the purpose of the company, if I don't subscribe to that, I would struggle really to, to do that. So for me that is really quite important. I think it's also one of the biggest pit of any HR organization, or any staff organization for that matter, is that the moment you can just pick up an HR department and plug them in in, in a different company, then you're in trouble. HR should not just be close to the business. HR is the business, right? HR is as close to the business as your sales organization is or as your engineering organization. And if, if that is not in our minds and if that is not in the HR department and the people who are in that team, if they don't feel that intrinsically, then they should probably take their business elsewhere.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: The other point I really appreciated too is you can't lift and shift kind of HR departments into companies. I think an error maybe that oftentimes organizations make, they think, oh, this person worked great in this company and we're going to lift them into our company and they're going to do the exact same thing and it's going to be, get the exact same outcomes. And that never works, right? Because it's, it's very contextual. The success of a chro probably. So tell us a little bit more about that.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: I do see absolutely echo what you're saying. If you can lift and shift an HR department and plug them in somewhere else, it's not good. Right? Because your HR department is very transactional, very process driven, very procedure driven. All very important to can fix your basics and make sure that all of that works. But then you're missing out on so many opportunities to create real business value and to create real value for your ultimate customers, which in my mind is always your employees. Over the years we've seen many people come and go in our people team. Also, especially with business partner roles. This is indeed more complex. Somebody coming from an entire different industry or coming from a company where the interpretation of the business partner role was entirely different. I think the business partner term is probably most overused in HR because I know many companies where an HR business partner is really an HR advisor, is very local maybe and may help with local matters.
Whereas companies like TomTom, where we only have few business partners as actually as many business partners as we have business units and where it's a very strategic function. So indeed you can certainly not just lift a ship, but also what works at one company is not always going to work at another company and that's very dependent on the company culture and the level of trust that you have and the level of autonomy. How process driven is this company, how formalist this company? Is it publicly traded or private and encapsulated? You're right there.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: How do you see a role both as leading the HR team but then also being a member of the management team at TomTom. What's the balance there? Which is the one that's more important or less important?
[00:12:38] Speaker A: I could not give you a oh, this is 5050 balance and I'm happy I cannot because that means that my team is as much part of the company as any other team. Right. I see my role as leader of the HR organization. Fortunately I have a fantastic leadership team that helps me with direct management of all the different functions. I think that's going really quite well. I do spend a lot of time with the people team because obviously I want to also I want to be connected to what's going on and typically whatever the business partners are working on then also comes back in our EB meetings and our standard management board meetings because they are dealing with the exact same challenges. So we might be dealing with operational challenges, delivering certain pieces to technology that we're committed to customers, to large automotive customers. That is as much a discussion or something, a problem we're trying to solve in the boardroom as we're trying to solve it in my HR team.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: I want to pivot a little bit and talk about what would be your advice to aspiring chros, current chros and maybe even CEOs on how to think about the role of the chro and how to either get there, do better at their role, and as a CEO, to leverage their chro in the best way.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: My advice to aspiring HR leaders obviously would be different than to CEOs. I'll get to the CEOs later. I think to aspiring HR leaders. Know your customer. I think that's really important. Know the business, understand the money. The money part is so very important. And don't dwell on the question whether or not you should have a seat at a table. Just sit down at that table.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: I think that's been such an ongoing question for the last 25 years or so. Should HR have a seat at the table?
[00:14:36] Speaker A: One of our founders, she always says get a seat at the table because if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. I did not come up with that myself, but it always resonates. And it's also the again, you know, a CFO does not quiz whether or not they have a seat at the table. They just sit down. Right. And a corporate structure is just like that. I think the pandemic has worked miracles for the whole corporate world to realize that you must actually have your HR officer at the table. But the flip side of that also, I think HR officers have also come to realize that if you are going to be at the table, you're going to have to make yourself heard, you're going to have to contribute. And that would also be my advice to CEOs.
Make sure there you have your chro at the table and make sure that you expect them to be passionate about the company and passionate about the vision of the company and what is it you're trying to achieve and then confide in them and rely on them to help you achieve that. Your business partner to the CEO. And that is incredibly important job. It's. I cannot imagine what it would be like. I have some idea what it would be like to actually be a CEO of a any company and have that end responsibility. And you need help. You need help managing your board. You need help finding the right balance in your board and organizing in such a way. You'd help engaging your employees where things get Hard. And if you cannot expect that help from your chro, then you should find another one.
[00:16:11] Speaker B: Oh, it's, it's fantastic. Any word of advice for the chro, the, the people that are chros today? How to maximize your impact, how to be more successful.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: Anything I'm going to say here is of course going to imply that people are not usually successful and impactful. Already I think two things that have really helped me. If you're in a global organization, I think you need to be in that global organization. You need to travel the world, you need to meet people, you need to interact with, connect with people. Really, you need to understand what's on their minds.
I think that is one. So knowing your customer, knowing what the business needs is important.
Second, what I think is really quite important is love the problem. So if your team is struggling to make an impact, try to find out, you know, so what is your team working on? And, and are they working on solving real business problems or are they working on, you know, kind of off the shelf HR solutions to loving the problem. So what is actually going on in the company? What's holding us back from achieving our vision and holding us back from engaging our workforce and, and being able to pay them healthy bonuses at the end of the year? What's holding us back? Where can we help? So love the problem. I think is great.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: What a fantastic piece of advice to love the problem. Don't fall in love with the trends, with the maybe tips that you get from others because it might not be anything that your organization needs. So that's, that's really, that's really you. Well, Anna Christian, I know we, we've already been talking for a while and I think we could talk for another few hours about this, but anything that you wanted to say.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Good. I, I really enjoyed our conversation and thank you for the invitation. It was great to be here.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: I'm looking forward to seeing you again soon.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Wow. What a conversation. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Anne Christian from tomtown. It's part of our Chro profiles describing what it takes to become a high performing chro. Arne Christian shared his journey to the Chro position as what we call a company chro. Somebody who worked within the organization in different roles until he became the Chro.
Incredibly, he has only worked in two companies in his entire career and was initially set on never working in hr. What a story. He also shared what he sees as the new role of the Chro to fall in love with a problem, not the solutions we build. In HR and support continuous business transformation. We look forward to bringing you more episodes with forward thinking HR leaders. Thanks for tuning in. Keep looking for what works in the world of work.
